Diminishing Gains doing the same thing:

Hi Ashley

It sounds as if you have been practicing either the original Bikram series or something remarkably close. Still I think that is not the real issue in your question – it is more about the repetitive nature, or practicing the same set of poses without alteration (whatever series).

I am concerned about the link between your lordosis and yoga asana and also with the teaching of your instructor. I would like to break these things down and separate them and I would love more information in order to comment on them.

Firstly you mention that you have lordosis which seems to be longstanding. Are you suggesting that it is because of practicing yoga that you have this? Or is this something you had before you started yoga?

Why these 26 poses? I guess someone placed these poses together and they became popular. No one can deny that there are things that could make this set of poses include other benefits to the body, but the particular sequence of which you speak seems anecdotally (and maybe even otherwise) to create a wonderful sense of wellbeing and even healing in the many varied yogis and yoginis who practice it around the world. And herein lies a big key to its success: The pure accessibility of the series to a wider range of students.

I don’t agree with the notion about the diminishing returns as it relates to the series itself. Let me explain:

>> In my mind diminishing returns would be if the same exercise was performed over and over again. For example working on the same machine at the gym or say, continuous biceps curls.
>> I think you may be considering the set of poses. Yes the whole set is done each class but they are wildly different in their approach and in the parts of the body that they work.
>> The poses themselves are practiced on different sides of the body.
>> A backbend will often be followed by a forward bend.
>> Balance of systems and not just physical balance often results.
>> You are not doing 90 minutes of the same exercise.
>> There is work of the muscles in a way that will allow the body to develop strength, flexibility and stamina etc through different timings and intensities, and also different pose mechanisms using different natural reflexes in the body.
>> The same poses allow people to have more awareness around their practice and allows them importantly, to ritualize their practice for greater gain and incorporation into their lifestyle.

Yes, it is possible that some folk find it boring after a while. But MOSTLY these people have just stopped being curious and are just going through the motions. That is a question of their own motivation as well as quality of instruction and is easily fixed 99% of the time.

I definitely agree that focusing as you do on anatomy and alignment is the best way to go!

As for why ONLY these poses: One is not bound to perform any action in the same way forever. You can change what you like. Or in another sense you can practice other styles of exercise to complement what you are repetitively doing. There are many people who have this style of yoga as one single part of a suite of things that they do. There are still benefits. And there are not just confined to the body. Of course there are whole organism effects on the mind, emotions, spirit.

I wonder whether there is a mixing up 2 different levels of understanding of the concept of diminishing returns.

The greatest benefits are seen from doing the same thing by those who are sedentary or low activity levels. Over time, physical benefits are minimal each day that one continues to do the same thing.

As a general principle most people who start out really out of shape and overweight will experience more change in the beginning than after they have created their ideal shape. They can’t keep on losing shape then can they? They will still greatly benefit physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually… Additionally, a person with less shape to change may change at a completely different rate to the previous example (whether faster or slower).

Let’s take a different example that will seem rather silly. We go to sleep at night. It is an activity that we do over and over and over again. I am not getting less benefit than I received when I was 20.

OK: Here’s the summary!
… The poses are varied enough in and of themselves that they are not repetitive to the body.
… The series as a whole is a repetition but is a holistic system that challenges the practitioner more than just physically.
… No one can ever continue getting the same high rate of benefits in probably ANYTHING that they do.
… The series works in challenge and recovery and healing to a great degree.
… One is not tied to just perform those poses. They can go and swim, run, bike, walk or … the sky’s the limit!

And finally I would welcome discussing/exploring the imbalance in your torso and hips/legs that expresses itself as a lordosis (I asked some questions above). Looking forward to hearing everyone’s opinions!

Namaste
Gabrielle 🙂

I am really taking a risk by commenting, because I have so little knowledge of Yoga in general and Birkram in particular. However, I do have some exeperience with physical conditioning and sports. Doint the same thing over and over brings to mind the practice of the skills needed to play basketball. There are a number of separate, specific skills needed. Dribbling, passing, shooting, offensive and defensive footwork, rebounding, free throw shooting. There are fundamental principles involved that need to be reenforced everyday. I recall hearing that it takes 3,000 repitions of a physical activity to create muslce memory. Of course, it may take more repitions for, let’s say driblling with the left hand if a person is right handed. Now, the specific motions are used in a myriad of situations and almost never the very same way, save for shooting, etc. but the application may vary.

So, if you accept that the poses in Bikram are beneficial, then it would seem that that continual mastery and reenforcement of them is beneficial, and as Gabrielle stated, after mastery has been accomplished the improvement might not be as noticeable. The key point though is doing them correctly, and hence the need for good instrucitons.

Thanks, just the ramblings of a neophyte.

I suppose it depends on what one sees as the purpose or desired “outcome” of ones practice. Having just lost 40 pounds working closely with a personal trainer I get the idea of diminishing returns — for me it meant that I could not work off the same number of calories if I didn’t change things up. So we worked on muscle confusion and the like because it made sense for my goals.

But for my yoga practice losing weight is not my goal. For me yoga is a form of meditation. Of being in the moment. I do it for centering, for grounding, and yes, to continue to expend energy through a physical practice. In terms of centering and grounding it doesn’t seem to me that the theory od diminishing returns is applicable. I don’t feel less grounded doing the same exact thing. I can sit and just follow my breath over and over and get a continued benefit.

The other thing I’d say is I never feel like I’m doing exactly the same thing. Get on a treadmill for 30 minutes and it feels the same each time. But every time I go into floor bow it is different. And I try to be aware of how different it is in each moment. It is always fresh for me.

Now I have also found that by doing the same positions each time I get to go a bit deeper, I’m not spending all of my time trying to figure out what the teacher is saying. I can be more present in my body while also paying attention to the teacher. At the beginning I’d say that 80% of my attention was on trying to understand the instructions. Now probably 20% of my attention is on the teacher. For my purposes, for the meditation of it all, this is a good thing.

Of course it isn’t for everyone. Really depends on why you might be doing yoga.

Happened to me yesterday too. My studio has lines on the floor where your suppose to put your mats so people don’t so this but I got behind a guy that did exactly that and was on 7 feet tall. So annoying. He was in a different spot today. Go early and get yourself a good spot 😉

Hey there

(warning: this is off the topic of diminishing gains and a response to the last 3 posts!)

It’s funny isn’t it? That we can be so polite on the outside but seething on the inside because of the injustice of it all!

I have been in that same position years ago. But these days if I don’t think I want to deal with it, if it really bothers me (especially if I have been mindful about my own placement) then I will actually go and ask that person if they wouldn’t mind shifting. Someone who places their mat directly in front of you can be requested to stand on the right side of their mat while you stand on the left. This takes care of the standing poses.

The hardest thing is when you are half way through class as it happened to you, where the other person lies down and sticks their feet in your face. Raaaagghhhhh!!! Tap them on the feet and if you can’t get the message through with just sign language then literally crawl on over and request they shift up 6 inches…

Nobody says you have to subjugate your rights in favor of anyone else’s in the room and put up with shabby treatment (mindful or unconscious). Showing that it affects you is not out of order in many circumstances. Balance that against your ability to maintain your own peace. Are you being persnickety or are you requesting the same consideration that a regular yogi/person would afford others? Are you over-reacting? Are you allowing yourself to be distracted when you can cope with a simple shift of your own? You can ask yourself all these questions and work out your plan of action. The owner of the feet in question can’t be pissed just because you ask for a shift and if they are, that’s not your stuff (just your reaction is). 😉

Anyway as I said this is way off the topic of diminishing gains for which there have been some great points raised … Are there any more contributors?

Namaste
Gabrielle 🙂

Hi,

I’m not sure how relevant this response is as I can only comment from the perspective of someone who attends Bikram yoga, and would then be a potential client. The original poster seems to want feedback on why to offer this style to clients.

“So many are injurred by yoga instruction – not yoga itself because the teacher leads their students to places they may not be ready to venture – I want to make sure that I am comfortable again with this before I share my consent to continue allowing this style to be taught in my facility.”

I can only say that from a business perspective, it would seem to depend on who your clients are. I imagine that most people who want to spend money on these classes are happy with the benefits already listed in these posts.

While there will be people in such amazing condition that they are disappointed with the ‘diminishing returns’ because they are so far along on the continuum of yoga practice that they need the challenge of changing up the positions, etc., I feel from the posts that I have read on this forum that I fit into the majority who are happy with their progress, and see the challenges presented by continued practice extending happily for years and years and years.

While I am continually surprised by my practice and sudden realize that I have moved inches this way or that, each practice presents new goals to achieve. I can’t even begin to imagine when the ‘diminishing returns’ will prevent my enthusiasm for returning to the next class, because of how I feel when I’m going.

I guess this response may not help if your facility is geared to a very specific group of clientele who are looking only for want you are pinpointing.

As well, you seem to be concerned about the quality of yoga instructors, which is a very different topic entirely. I guess for that, responses from those who run studios would be most appropriate.

Take care, Ilonka