Locked Knees and Hamstring Injury

[yogalifer]

#1239

Gabrielle,
I just received your Hot Yoga Master Class and it is EXACTLY what I need to move beyond the beginner level of my practice. Thank you so much for putting this together.

I began my yoga practice with Vinyasa yoga three years ago. After about a year, I started having significant trouble with my hamstrings. This was pain right where the hamstrings connect in the buttocks area. If I stretched and warmed up, this didn’t really bother me during class, but I could hardly walk or sit afterwards. With some research, I discovered that this is a common injury in yoga–especially in the West–from forcing the stretch. My research told me that the best way to heal this injury is to stop stretching for awhile and to do strengthening exercises for the hamstrings. I knew a little about Bikram and thought that it might be a good solution for this problem. I started in May and have not been going deep into any poses that require a hamstring stretch.

This approach has been working pretty well. The hamstring pain went away and I started stretching again, but it came back. I have backed off again. I am optimistic that, someday, I will again be able to stretch my hamstrings.

Sorry for the long build-up, but with regards to this pose, I have read your analysis and fully agree with the idea of straightening and stretching the spine and then working into straight legs. This concept works very well for me in that I can get benefit from the pose while keeping my knees bent to protect my injury. However, the instructors at my studio just won’t allow me to do this. They tell me that I should not be pulling with my arms unless my legs are locked. They instruct me to just put my hands on the floor in front of me with my legs locked. Well, this does absolutely nothing for me.

I really like and respect my instructors and am not sure how best to handle this. Should I just follow their suggestion and, effectively, wait until my hamstrings are healed before I can get any benefit out of this pose?

Namaste
Cindy

[kellybelly]

#3749

Cindy,

While you’re waiting to hear from Gabrielle, I wanted to tell you that I would be very wary of any teacher who would be so inflexible (pun intended) when working with a student with an injury. To insist that you do something one way as a matter of dogma when something else is clearly working better for you does not seem to be very, well, yogi-like! I received a hamstring injury practicing Ashtanga and it took forever to heal. And so now, when that old injury starts to bark at me even a little bit, I back off and am never sorry. I work with it, work around it, it quiets, eases, strengthens and I can stretch again.

Namaste,

Kelly

[yogalifer]

#3751

Kelly,
Thanks for the feedback. How long did it take for your injury to heal? I worked through mine for about a year before I got smart enough to back off on the stretching. After about 4 months of Bikram and not stretching my hamstrings, they got better. However, when I started stretching them again, they started to hurt again. I have backed off again. I think that part of the problem is that my hamstrings are flexible and it really doesn’t hurt when I am doing the poses. it just hurts later. I worry that this will be something that will always pester me.

Namaste,
Cindy

[Gabrielle (The Hot Yoga Doctor)]

#3753

Hi Cindy, Hi Kelly

Oh boy! What a ridiculous situation.

It really annoys me that sound physiological principles are completely thrown out the window in favor of dogmatic teaching.

The technique described in the Hot Yoga MasterClass manual in great detail and also touched on in Opening up your hamstrings with hot yoga is absolutely the way to go.

As you BOTH and thousands of others can swear, many back, hamstring and sciatic issues are WORSENED when you lock your legs and stretch to the floor through a ROUNDED back. This is dangerous. And then to be told ‘my way or the highway’ with a risky maneuver is just irresponsible (or insert word of choice … 😉 ).

The magical part of using the technique described (particularly for Hands to Feet and Separate Leg Intense Stretch) is that you don’t need to back off AT ALL. It simply does not matter if your legs are bent. I guarantee you that you will feel the stretch – and more importantly you will feel a safe stretch – right through the back of your body which opens up the calves, hamstrings and the whole back, while working the arm muscles.

So what do you do when your teachers say no? Unfortunately the polite person inside of us wants to please the teacher and not cause any waves. And defying them by simply not listening to their admonitions that you have to do it in the way that hurts you, can cause some internal conflict! Yikes.

You have 2 choices. One of them is to ignore your teachers and continue to do what works for you (safe in the knowledge that you are not changing the pose or defying any good solid scientific and yogic principles) and build that strong internal frame of reference that allows you to stand up for yourself even in the face of opposition. That in itself is a great thing. And I am sure you can also approach it another way.

Perhaps you can go to your teacher/s and express your feelings and needs. It is definitely hard to give you the script for how a unique conversation is going to work out. But there are definitely things you could say:

* I am feeling very upset/angry/dismayed/bewildered (or whatever your feelings are) when I am commanded to do this pose in a way that actually causes further damage to my hamstrings. I feel strain in my back and damage occurring in my hamstrings when hanging out with my hands on the floor with straight legs. I need to feel safe and that the work I am doing is benefiting me so I am requesting that you allow me to do this pose (without complaint) in the way that works.
* I enjoy coming here, and I want to let you know that I am going to continue to do that pose in the way that benefits me.

You could try showing them the post on Opening up your hamstrings with hot yoga. You can get all factual on someone but unless they are willing to listen to you and adopt a sense of curiosity, you may find you simply have to defy them in class.

My guess is that your comments will be welcomed and you will be able to do what works. You COULD get some opposition but what can they do to you? Can they force you to do it the wrong way?

The worst case scenario is that they throw you out of their studio. Yeah right! That’s not going to happen.

We all have to learn to live with feedback. And it is not just the student who has that job to learn. 😉 I love this yoga and I really value how it has made me stronger (and millions out there). You hear feedback in the room that potentially can unbalance you, emotionally and physically – remember when you were a new student? And after a while, you hear stuff, you check in with your body and you work out whether the feedback you hear for Joe Blow on the other side of the room actually can apply to you too. You check, you apply it or you don’t. But it is you who decides. The beauty is that while you literally became unbalanced in the beginning of your practice now you just observe (listen) and you apply it if necessary without emotion.

Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying you should do your own class with your own adjustments and make up your own pose sequence (as some people have been known to do). You are not changing the pose you are doing it properly. You will feel stronger when you can assert yourself without then berating yourself or judging anyone else for the reactions it evokes or ’causes’. When you can do that without self-judgment, others will less likely judge you! :cheese:

Namaste
Gabrielle 🙂

PS I am overjoyed that you love your Hot Yoga MasterClass manual!!! 🙂 Thanks Cindy

[kellybelly]

#3759

Such good advice — every word!

Cindy — my injury took 12 weeks with no stretching to begin to feel normal. After that, there was deep muscle tightness that I could only address by doing the following, and it may sound strange, but it really helped. I took a firm ball about the size (but not quite the hardness) of a tennis ball, and while sitting with legs straight out in front of me, placed it under where my thigh meets my buttock. I let my hamstring relax and “melt” over the ball while breathing deeply as I slowly stretched out over that leg. I don’t know if this makes sense to you, but sitting with the ball pressing under the tight muscle acted almost like a deep massage and made stretching easier. The ball thing is an adaptation of a relaxation technique I learned in a movement class at NYU many, many years ago. The technique uses different size balls and your own body weight to relax muscles — mostly along your spine. I don’t think I’m explaining it very well, but maybe you’ll find something useful in all this rambling!

Kelly

[yogalifer]

#3761

Gabrielle,
Thanks for the great advice. I typically shy away from confrontation, but I know that I am not doing myself or others any favors when I do this. So, I am going to talk with my instructors about this issue. I have mentioned the Hot Yoga Master Class book to the owner of the studio and she is interested in seeing it. I think that I will show her the section in contention and feel her out as to whether she might agree with this approach. I am not sure that she will because she is very firm in the Bikram teachings. I’ll see what happens in the conversation and determine my next moves. 🙂 This is the only Bikram studio that is nearby and I want to continue to go there so I will work something out one way or the other.

Kelly,
Thanks for the detail! A trainer suggested that I sit on tennis balls, but did not say any more about how to go about it. I am going to try your approach.

Namaste,
Cindy

[Gabrielle (The Hot Yoga Doctor)]

#3763

Hi Cindy

It is interesting that you use the word confrontation. Because I am guessing that is how you feel it will turn out. I know you don’t want it to and I guess too that you want to protect your personal ‘yoga space’.

You could practice the preferred way (wink wink) before and after class (and maybe even at home) and not do that pose at all in class if that is what will work.

I AM very firm on the Bikram teachings. And I am extremely firm on not encouraging damage or risky situations.

Paschimottanasana means INTENSE STRETCH. It doesn’t mean intense strain. It seems that many have started teaching this pose in a way that causes the latter. I know I was taught it the right way. I don’t know how the different interpretations come about. I do hope that someone listens to you.

But to put it very simply, it is using the same principle as you use in Hands to Feet, you wouldn’t DREAM of having your legs straight in that pose if your body was not on your legs. This is the way you straighten and stretch your back. You PULL with your ARMS, and you progressively move your hips up to the ceiling. This protects your back while you feel a STRETCH right through the back of the body. What happens if you move the body away from the legs? Your back rounds and guess what? You strain your back and inflame sciatic conditions. Done correctly it feels fabulous regardless of flexibility or how bent your legs are.

Now simply do that pose (Hands to Feet) again, and move your feet 2 and a half to 3 feet apart! Voila

That may help you describe the technique because the example/comparison is very plausible and quantifiable.

Good luck!!! :cheese:

Namaste
Gabrielle 🙂

[tajana.goles1983]

#9639

Hello,

I was just reading about this hamstring injury (from the back of my knee, all the way to my buttock – where it is the strongest). I’ve also been suffering from it for 6 years already. It was all great at times I didn’t stretch, but as I never wanted to ignore stretching and wanted to improve flexibility, I’d always start to stretch again and it would always come back. I can easily do the forward bend almost with my chest to my knees with even straight legs but the problem for me is the same stretch with my legs wide open (apart) and then trying to reach my toes on the left side (on the right leg I have no pain)then it hurts like hell… As well as the wide butterfly pose (with my feet away from my groins and then leaning forward, then the left hamstring hurts even worse and unfortunately I always felt the need myself (no dogmatic teachers :-))to keep working through that pain because though it hurt it also in a way felt good to work through it – but as you can see the pain is still here. As I gathered you advice us to keep stretching but to adjust the poses (bent knees) to back off it the pain arises in any pose and that in time this hamstring injury should heal itself? Is this basically it or you have some extras?

[Gabrielle (The Hot Yoga Doctor)]

#9640

Hi Tajana

You may also need to address a weakness in your hamstrings. It’s possible that the stretching is aggravating that weakness. You may choose to go and see somebody (physiotherapist) have them check out the functioning of your body in certain movements, massage out some of the fascial adhesions and give you some exercises.

You certainly shouldn’t be feeling such pain and aggravation especially not for years!

I hope it resolves quickly for you. You are obviously very flexible. Just wondering if you ever find that you can’t seem to stretch as far as before.

Namaste
Gabrielle 🙂

[tajana.goles1983]

#9647

Hello again,

as first thanx for this fast reply… For your final question is kind of a true. I do not feel I can stretch less, but definitely feel my stretching didn’t improve significantly over the last couple of years and it takes me forever to stretch (warm up) in the morning. The difference between morning and evening flexibility is actually drastic. While in the evening I can effortlessly reach my knees with my chest in the morning I can hardly touch my toes for the first 20 minutes of workout. And yes, couple of years ago I went to the doctor for this hamstring, they put me on some machines and told me I was perfectly fine and healthy and that why would I have the need to touch my toes as some goal in life (?!?!):bug:

Thanx again for all your work, effort, inspiration and help,

By the way salutes from a distant Croatia…

[Gabrielle (The Hot Yoga Doctor)]

#9728

Hi Tajana

I am back! hehehe

OK, so let’s get back on track. After all this time, you should feel more flexible – at least a little. Your stretching should not feel so much like effort. I don’t know if have been trying to improve the strength of your hamstrings! Do tell, please. I really believe this is at least part of the answer. As you may have read that trying to stretch through a weaker muscle will only prolong the problem.

If you are suffering from hamstring pain for a long time and it’s a strain to warm up and other tell tale signs then you owe it to yourself to fix this. You do seem to indicate in your first post that there’s perhaps a little too much ‘trying hard’ and pushing in your practice.

I do know it’s been 2 months since you posted, so to start Tajana, can you tell me what’s happened and what action you’ve taken?

Namaste
Gabrielle 🙂

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